Yes, to some degree. You can have half of it, or something to that effect. The idea of making changes or improvements in the IRS is a pretty tough idea, but you find yourself doing things like that. Before we come back to this, I want to pose one question and that is about the Presidents style when he was working the phones with members of the House. Anyone who does that indeed does not know what he is doing, and its the equivalent of Economic Policy 101. He was shot eight times, mostly in the chest. And it was just fuel on the already roaring fire of Whitewater. There are too many people in his own administration, at least at the moment, who think that all he finally did was succumb to the Republican position, and anybody who wore a D on his shirt and supported the Republican position could have brought along enough Ds to make the bill happen. I can remember feeling very chastened because he talked about how many children we were helping and how many families we were helping and I chose to try to makejust in the spirit of celebration, a few jokes. But that was really after the economic program passed. A fairly major effort went into that, which I was part of. The politics of Oklahoma. [laughter]. I remember that day. I think its a combination of several things. Did you go to Little Rock for the election? WebRobert Altman's House (former) Malibu, California (CA), US Like Tweet Share Pin The film director, known for making films that are highly naturalistic, but with a stylized So my second point is that I was a part of that during the pre-war room period. Clinton had plied the waters of the Democratic Party with great assiduousness for many, many years. I have a very old-fashioned view about that. There had been some minor event that day and he was asked what he thought of the latest developments in Iran and he said, I dont talk about barbarians. Thats one of the things that kind of surprises. The Republicans quite shrewdly picked out some that didnt make sense and off the bat marshaled a very focused attack on it. There was no surprise. You can see it in real life at 3901 S. Michigan Avenue, about 20 minutes from the Second of all, I am not a classic liberal, so Ive thought for 20 or 25 years that classic 60s liberalism was the wrong way to go. Hes pointing to the right-hand column of theWall Street Journal. Im not quite sure what their input was. I think Clinton authentically saw healthcare as more important, believed it was a bigger national problem, and thought he was tackling the bigger of the two. The Clinton years were not in any respect unique from that point of view, but that partisanship for some reason or other seems to go in cycles and we just happen to come into office at a time when the cycle was moving up in terms of the scale of partisanship. We had to be sure Mexico could live with it. Now, it may last five or six more years, it may last 25 more years, I dont know. But the election result itself was anticlimactic. It wasnt as simple as that, lay the groundwork for a new agreement. The first thing that we typically do is a quick voice identification so that the transcriptionist will know whos talking at any given time.Im Russell Riley, the project leader for the Clinton Presidential History Project. You could have something like the Paris agreement in 1985 when there was coordinated strengthening of the European and Japanese currencies and weakening of the dollar. She figured in some bumper stickers also. I recall taking maybe one or two trips with him outside New York, mostly just for my own enjoyment, to see what it was like. Why didnt that work, from your perspective? I mean, I could imagine that in your tenure, the perception might have been quite the reverse, but I dont know. In part, there was a sectoral approach. So I didnt take him seriously except as in a sort of inner political context. He was quite an unknown in New York, wasnt he, until he came, appeared, and talked? Oh yes, sure. I was in Tokyo with President Clinton, the Tokyo Economic Summit and Id made several trips to Tokyo paving the way for that. Its really quite stunning. The process for conceiving it was a frail one, poor one. Its mostly things I learned that dont work. Ill never forget, I went in to see one of them whod been shot eight times. Not giving it a lot of thought, frankly, I said, Sure. Were you involved in that effort? So in June 91 it wasnt completely unknown, it wasnt below the radar screen, but there was always a group of people who were political junkies and so forth, and Im certainly in that group, who were following it, just like theres a large number of people that are following it today, 17 months beforehand. He knew what the House would do. So it could be revived again tomorrow. Id have to do a little homework. I was there to the last day of the Carter Presidency, and all of a sudden we were able to negotiate the release of those hostages. How difficult was it to do what you were doing in an environment where Mario Cuomo was sort of floating around trying to figure out. I think the Japanese have ultimately realized its in their own interests to make a lot of these changes. I think this had to be artfully crafted in order to get through. The thing was televised, nonstop. But, in any event, everything was going fine at the RTC until, unfortunately, the matter of Madison Guaranty came up. He told me that at the very beginning. This wont help you because its not very original, but theres something about President Clinton that had the effect of rubbing salt on a wound as far as his opponents were concerned. I was not involved in the decision as to the sequencing of healthcare versus welfare reform. It sounds like Bentsens Congressional or legislative savvy was not being availed of in these chaotic meetings, the policy-making meetings. Those carve-outs were all done on a tripartite basis. In retrospect, a limited, very grudging change. Ill never forget that, he was a good guy, a real good old boy, I cant recall his name now, hes not in Congress any longer, but I arrived at the airport and he meets me and he says, Look, just get one thing straight, youre not going to say a word today about guns, nothing. In that regard, I would guess that your background on Wall Street was a big help in terms of talking with these members and having a rapport with them that they would feel comfortable with? And deficit reduction was his top priority, a focus at the top? I left the White House around April, took a couple of months off, and went back to New York. He didnt say so, but supposedly he never does. Im not in the Senate. I went also for the election. I recall a large event, right after New Years, the fourth of January I believe, in 92, that I organized at their request, which was just simply to have a large number of people listen to Clinton give a speech. Those are two different questions, Id rather answer the will be question. We had a bad one against the yen when the dollar touched an all-time low of 80 yen. I dont question the sincerity of every opponent. I hadnt been parachuted in from some distant spot without any such relations. We recommend you to check the complete Not particularly. Thats true, yes. We were negotiating a national agreement with the Japanese. But everybody felt such a part of it because they were sitting right there. Were there different views? By that late stage of the budget battle, all the concessions and fine-tuning that could be made to the bill had already been done, so you had a package at that point that wasnt going to be reopened. I ran three times for student office while I was there. I dont think there have been many members of Congress in the 20th centuryI would think of Lyndon Johnson, Russell Long, Richard Russell. It wasnt a great agreement. Im sure there are lots of aspects of the preparation plan. It was a voluntary choice. Ive known many members. Sure. Any meaningful change in the bill, particularly if were talking about the last month or two, was only done with the approval of the President. He was a classic, in my book, excellent chief executive. WebNot only are 10% of the U.S. House and Senate Jesuit-trained from Georgetown, but so are many of the world's political leaders, which should have you asking What are they really up to?" The chief, the captain of that ship with Mickey Kantor, USTR [United States Trade Representative], and to some considerable extent Ron Brown, Secretary of Commerce, and Lloyd Bentsen played a big role in it. Panetta had made a very distinguished career as House Budget Chairman out of pushing for lower deficits and a more transparent budget process. But you can imagine the irony of that comment because the Republicans to a man were opposing it because it is tax and spend economics, and the President is saying its going to go down because it is Wall Street economics. Oh sure, sure, well have another major Presidential uproar. Id actually been politically active in high school, but my political involvements didnt extend beyond the campus. We didnt know if we were going to win. Anyway. Secretary Bentsen didnt know about it but a lot of other people did, and nobody paid much attention to it. When we then proceeded on NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], which was the next very dramatic moment. No, the rest of those were really in the purview, in the ambit of Larry Summers. But in any event, the cooperation in both cases was optimal. Clintons very first initiative was his stimulus program. And, of course, the ATF agents didnt know what they were going to experience and he found himself exposed to an open line of fire. I know this sounds a bit odd, I hadnt thought about it a huge amount, partly because I had a full-tilt business career, and I was trying to separate the two. If we have another Iran-Contra therell have to be an independent counsel, thered have to be. I think hes deeply appreciated. Once she was put in charge of it, it obviously had tremendous internal focus. I ran into Alice on the plane. But in any event, what gets discussed most in the campaign historically may or may not be the first or second major initiative that comes from the new President. Then maybe half of them we discussed about this person, that person. I just remember that being contemporaneous with the real beginning of an organized effort here. We had so much going on that Bentsen asked me if I would just, on an interim basis, serve as interim chairman of the RTC. Finally the famous proposal comes forward and its put before the Congress. So I said, Well then, thats the course Im going to take. Because they thought, If we hold those hostages very long at all after this man becomes President, we may be nuclearized. Carter had his famous Pond House meetings, and I went to a couple of those. The Republicans in the Senate especially, led by Senator [Alfonse] DAmato who was Chairman of the Banking Committeeno, he was ranking minority member, became Chairman after the election of 94. My point is, I thought the whole discussion had a considerable impact on Clinton, as did scores of others along the way after that. But as to whether it was an innovation, I doubt it. The social aspect of it also involved here? That was the first thing I did. There were some enormous differences. I recall, for example, a discussion at that very original dinner in the spring of 1991 and a rather focused discussion on economic policy, and particularly about deficit reduction. For other people it was Clintons legendary one-on-one prowess and his effectiveness in small groups, but I dont think theres any one reason why this person or that. I think I called that evening. This is a bit of an anecdote, but of course Joel Klein served in the Clinton administration. Bentsen had run for Congress at a very young age, successfully, was re-elected two or three times, then quit and went into business and was very successful in business. He is the only person who has declined because of heath reasons and we wont have the opportunity to talk with him. Anything in particular you recall that can flesh out the record? But all Im trying to say is if you look at Lloyd Bentsens background, Rob Rubins background, and even to a much lesser extent my background, we knew about monetary policy and we knew about the role of the Fed. Sure. I raise the issue because I think theres an extraordinary difference in contemporary politics without the existence of that, without the fact of an independent counsel lingering over an administrations head, and you obviously having had some experience with this would be able to testify to infractions. So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. WebKathryn Reed Altman and Roger Altman attend State of the Union Dinner at The Re-Opening of the Plaza Hotel Ballroom on January 28, 2008 in New York Roger Altman and Mayor Michael Bloomberg attend THIRTEEN and WLIW 21 Annual Gala Salute at Gotham Hall on April 30, 2007 in New York City. Gene Sperling was in it. That was a wonderful comment. Might have been established by Washington. So my average day was spent a few blocks from here, working full-tilt on the business responsibilities I had. Clinton is nothing if not rigid. Phil Gramm, Ill never forget, predicted that it would usher in a new depressionI mean depression, not recession. I guess we have to just win then. That was the first time we had an opposition takeover. He was very disciplined and he went to bed at a certain time and he went home. No, I just remember the meeting in Little Rock quite vividly, and I think one of the first presentations was given by Allen Blinder about the economic outlook and the extent to which certain amounts of interest rate response would produce likely amounts of growth response. You didnt have to spend much time around them to see this. So I spent a lot of time on healthcare. The arrangements, as far as the White House, how it passes operation, and the Treasury operationshould that be seen as well coordinated, or is it difficult to coordinate? Its rare that an issue divides the Democrats. Those things were at a peak in 94, just at the time healthcare was on the table. Can you tell us about that? @ 34.032138, -118.722249. I know this will sound quite strange, but Clinton was in some awe of Bentsen and a little bit of fear of Bentsen. They werent really involved in the doing of the plan. Clinton of course had committed to that during the campaign and it made fiscal sense in the sense of there being so much economic slack. There ensued a quite Byzantine process, as has been so widely written about with multiple task forces and enormous numbers of people involved.There were a lot of these Bill Clinton-style meetings, great big long meetings with far too many people in the room. So if you survey the 50 most senior people who ever served in the Clinton administration, about 25 of them will say welfare reform was a great triumph for the President, about 25 of them will say he just caved. I can vote against it, tell my constituents Ill never support a tax increase. I doubt it. So it was a combination of an organized role. Im an economist in the Brookings Institution in Washington. But that was what one did as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. What was different about it was that it worked, because most of them had been somewhat dysfunctional. I believe Perots presence helped Clinton because Perot kept saying how messed up the country was, so that actually helped the challenger rather than the incumbent. They just called someone in the war room and they had an immediate answer or immediate access to whatever they needed. Welfare reform is a different issue, though. Now, theyre sometimes minor changes that dont require that, but any meaningful change in the later stages required the Presidents approval. But the other approach for a short-term stimulus would be to do what this President did, or maybe it was the Democrats that forced him to do when he took office, which is refundable credit that goes out in the middle of the summer of your first year in office. He was named the first week of December. Having watched very carefully what Bob Carswell, who served for three plus years of the four Carter years as Deputy Secretary, did in that role, and that was actually rather different than my role. I dont know this, but I suspect that was decided largely between the President and Mrs. Clinton. In the spring of 1991, I think it would have been May or June, we had the chance to have a talk here in New York, and I then talked to him by phone. Wasnt that a state-chartered institution? There was also a whole series of other investigations undertaken at the same time, one by the Office of Government Ethics, one by the Treasury Inspector General, one by the Office of White House Counsel. So I think it was quite smart to be done then. The President relied on Bentsen and Altman to take on some of his Administrations toughest tasks. Yes. Theres some story that he demanded a commission on entitlement reform as a price. I respected him, but I never identified with him and I didnt see him being a successful Democratic nominee. We wanted Japan to commit to rebalance the current account between the two countries, including committing itself to some pro-growth steps at home, and we wanted a specific agreement on autos and certain other things. Now, of course, as far as working the Hill was concerned, I would take my cues from the constant and joint planning of the White House and Treasury legislative liaison staffs. A lot of the talk was about the public credit markets responding, not so much the Fed. So he performed a similar role. Was that equally true of the colleagues that you were making sales to with Clinton? Stephanopoulos was there and Sperling was there. Web(Studio: Charles Gibson) Earlier interview held with Evercore Partners Roger Altman about the House vote and the market reaction. Not surprising, given his state of origin. Remember, youre playing for four years, youre not playing for one year. Its always a mistake to critique the Federal Reserve. In 1991 it was not organized. He was quite in the minority at the time. How can you get more quantitative and specific than that? Can you tell us about his decision-making process on this? He created a big expectation with that speech that he gave I think in the fall of 1993. I knew a lot about Perot, having been heavily involved in Wall Street for many years. As a Democratic President however, he could have vetoed the bill and it would have been sustained by Congress. Bentsen was chosen during the first week of December. Would I have considered moving to Switzerland if he did become President? Is the existence of a war room something. No, it was not at all. You dont recall the specific occasion when you first met him? We had a good discussion and I went back to the airport and flew home. You know, theres another element of this. But I dont think Ive ever witnessed, I can only call it a hate campaign, or feeling of hate I guesswhether its a campaign or not I dont knowbut this intense animosity to Bill Clinton and to Hillary Clinton. Do you have the perception that there were some other instances where maybe this wasnt done? I did too. He must have had enough of a political antenna to realize this was going to be a tough call in a Democratic constituency in Pennsylvania or Michigan. Each day hed give a speech and mark off a day, counting down the days to the expiration of the statute of limitations and saying these people at the RTC damn well better be sure that justice is served, the Clintons arent off the hook. Im trying to get a sense of what their input to the whole process was. As I say, we assembled sometime between the 20th and 25th of November in Washington and then December 5th or 6th or 7th or whatever it was he made his choices. Yes, he did. We just discussed one of them, which is the up cycle in partisanship, as I call it. You may remember that Clinton put forward a white paper, if I can call it that, called Putting People First, which came out I believe at the end of 1991. No. Nothing, zero, never did, never would have. He has difficulty speaking. We had an autos task force with certain members of the Clinton administration and certain Japanese counterparts on that. You couldnt do that. No. We came up with a Btu [British thermal unit] tax. No voters will cast their votes, even two years from now, even in 94, one year from now, on the basis of my having voted against it. That was not a high point of the Clinton Presidency. I got involved in certain aspects of preparing it, editing it, fine-tuning it, I recall that. But it wasnt clear that he was going to do so until not long before he did. By and large, most of the members of the Finance Committee in the Senate and the Ways and Means Committee in the House. The only other observation that just randomly runs through my mind is, I was always described in the press as an intimate of Clintons and that was just not the case. It certainly wasnt optimal. That approach hasnt been able to capture a majority of the American public for 40 years and I dont think its going to capture the majority of the American public for another 40 years. But there was a discontinuity between the campaign and the administration, In this respect exactly right. None of the aspects of her role bothered me at all. Im not sure it makes entire sense, however, to judge or to assess a Presidents contribution by the standard of those who are given, in effect, a free gift of power to deal with a crisis. Yes. He helped me in my efforts and then a year later I helped him in his. In other words, all the work that goes in before its actually sent to the Hill. 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